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KLASDOTY.TXT
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1990-01-14
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======================================================================
FILE ORIGINATES FROM: <<UFONET I>>
UPLOADED BY: Tom Mickus
DATE OF UPLOAD: JAN/14/1990
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KLASDOTY.TXT [ ***] JAN/88 Interview with Klass and R. Doty
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NOTE: The file is reproduced verbatim, except for use of "(sic)".
Use of "{}" and "()" brackets, along with CAPITALIZATION and
underlining "___" are evidently the work of the author of
this transcript. Additionally, all personal comments and
characterizations contained within, are also of the author's.
"PJK:" = Phillip J. Klass
"RCD:" = Richard C. Doty
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=======================================================================
Richard (Rick) C. Doty: Telephone interview: Jan. 8, 1988
(Highlight/Excerpts)
1. Says unable to meet with PJK this weekend, will not be in the
area, returning Thursday/Friday.
2. He asked what he could do for me and I said I wanted to get
him (sic) comments on allegations against him in Just Cause and in
MUFOn (sic) Journal. Said he has seen both.
PJK: Are you planning to take any action?
RCD: I've already taken action. I've an attorney that last summer
took some action on my behalf regarding the allegation that I allegedly
had leaked these documents. {{PJK Note: But that allegation would not
(sic) made publicly by Greenwood until Sept. 1987}} And Greenwood,
Gersten, Moore and a couple other people were involved. WELL, I HAVE
AN AFFIDAVIT SIGNED BY BILL MOORE THAT WAS EXECUTED IN COURT WITH MY
ATTORNEY PRESENT THAT SAYS THAT BILL MOORE NEVER, EVER RECEIVED ANYTHING
FROM ME OTHER THAN SOME BITS AND PIECES ABOUT AN INCIDENT THAT HAPPENED
AT KIRTLAND IN 1980. {{PJK doubts this could have occurred in the few
months since allegations were made public.}}
"HE GAVE THE PERSON'S NAME IN THE AFFIDAVIT THAT HE RECEIVED THE
DOCUMENTS FROM, AND THIS PERSON--I DON'T KNOW HIM--THIS PERSON IS IN
WASHINGTON D.C. AND MY ATTORNEY WENT TO WASHINGTON D.C. AND SPOKE TO
THIS PERSON AND HE DENIED EVER GIVING BILL MOORE ANYTHING ALTHOUGH HE
SAID HE HAD REGULAR CONTACT WITH BILL MOORE. {{PJK: Very doubtful claim}}
So, allegedly, Peter Gersten was given this information and then
apologized saying that they never had any concrete information that I
had given him anything anyways, but they had kind of put two and two
together and thought that it must have come from me.
PJK: You say that Moore signed an affidavit. Have you made that
affidavit public?
RCD: No, no I haven't.
PJK: Do you plan to?
RCD: I don't know. It's up to the attorney. Again, this happened last
year and I have had (sic) any further contact with MUFON or the CAUS
people. {He later changes this story.} When that article came I was
inundated with phone calls and letters and people trying to interview me
saying they want to know what this is all about. And I don't even know,
I didn't know, I didn't see these documents until October or November.
{NOTE: he is referring to the MJ-12 papers, which were first made public
in late May/early June, 1987}
And I too (sic) one look at them and said, these are phoney. (Laughs)
These aren't even credible documents. What I was shown had some legitimate
documents in that was obtained FOIA but these other ones that were
released--apparently Bill Moore released it in some kind of a news release.
He claimed to have gotten these in (PJK: In December, 1984). Well
I wasn't even in the country, nor would anyone have had access to me in
1984. All these things were started in the lawyer's--I can't remember
what the legal term was he used--but the court document refuting the claim
that I gave him.
PJK: Would you be willing to give me the name of your lawyer?
RCD: Ah, I can give him your name and he can contact you. But why would
you want to know that?
PJK: (Explains I am long-time UFO skeptic/investigator, that if MJ-12
papers were authentic, it would be biggest story for AW&ST. So I dug
into MJ-12, found evidence to indicate they are a hoax.)
RCD: Yeah, you just have to look at them. A fifth grader could tell
they're not properly classified and down grade instructions. I've been
working in classified for 20 years, from all levels. When my lawyer
showed me copies of them--and my lawyer is retired military, of course,
and he could tell they're phoney.
Apparently Gersten's crew knew they were phoney.
PJK: (Explains prevailing view among UFO believers is that MJ-12 is a
hoax, but question is who is responsible for producing them.)
RCD: WELL, THE FBI KNOWS THAT. THE FBI KNOWS WHO DID IT. THAT
INFORMATION WAS PROVIDED TO THE FBI, THE FBI INTERVIEWED THIS PERSON
AND OF COURSE THIS PERSON DENIED HE EVER GAVE THEM TO HIM (Moore).
But I thin what this person did was he created the documents--I don't
know if Bill Moore was actually involved in it, I don't think he was,
but it's a possibility.
The FBI never pursued it, I don't know why, unless they just couldn't.
I don't know if there was any law that this guy broke. I don't if that
is public record or not, but you'd have to go to the FBI to find out.
BUT I KNOW FOR A FACT THEY INTERVIEWED HIM--THIS PERSON IN WASHINGTON D.C.
PJK: And about when would that have been?
RCD: Ah, gee, last year (ie. 1987)
PJK: How would the FBI have located this person in Washington--I'll call
him Mr. X--
RCD: As a matter of fact that's what William Moore called him, Mr. X.
PJK: Are you suggesting that Moore told the FBI who X is?
RCD: I don't. To tell you the truth I don't remember how--and I don't
even know if I was privvy (sic) to that information as to how the FBI
found ought (sic) who this guy was, but I think that after this stuff
came out the Justice Dept. investigated it or made some inquiries or
something and then found out, I don't know how. I don't have that
information.
---------------------------------------------------------
PJK then raises allegations made by CAUS and reads the first:
"In 1984, Linda Moulton Howe, who produced the well-known cattle
mutilation film STRANGE HARVEST, was contacted by a government source
{{CAUS later identifies this source as Doty}} to aid in producing a
UFO documentary, essentially providing the answer to UFOs. She was
invited by the source, briefed on the story, then sworn to secrecy
about it unti the film's eventual release. The deal was never completed.
Details of the story given to her match the MJ-12 tale, along with much
extra detail about contacts with 'EBES' {{Extraterrestrial Biological
Entities}}, Nordic type aliens called 'Highs' and conflicting alien
factions."
What can you tell me about your contact with her?
RCD: (Laughs) OK. In my duties, in my official government duties I
made contact with her AND I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY, I made contact with
her for information that she had that she was willing to share with
us. The information had nothing to do with UFOs, absolutely nothing
to do with UFOs. {{PJK note: Howe is a slightly wacky free-lance TV
producer who focuses on UFOs, cattle mutilations, UFO-abductions, etc.
--What kind of info would she have that Doty would seek "in an official"
capacity--and which is so sensitive he could not tell me??}}
When she found out I was with a government agency and I was the
same one that had investigated the (UFO) incident (at Kirtland) in 1980,
she started asking me questions about UFOs, about what I thought about
UFOs, and what my beliefs were about them, and if I could tell her
anything about wha